Here is my reply to Rick. After the nasty spat I think things have cooled & everyone is tiring of the fight...
Hi Rick!
Hope your family is doing well...did those storms affect you or am I talking about the wrong geographic area?! One nice thing with living in Yuma, Arizona...you lose track of the fact that most of the nation has a winter!
All right...enough of the pleasantries!! Here goes...
For my personal journey, it started after 9/11...hell I voted for Bush in 2000! I was very Republican, especially still in business (I still lean towards the right in that area...for example I don't think unions are the answer). The amount of hate we all had was understandable...I had it too. But when I saw that hate being applied in blanket fashion to all Arabs I didn't think that was the answer. As we moved towards war with Iraq I slowly realized that the values I had identified with growing up did not define me as an adult. The day we invaded Iraq I changed my party affiliation and over the rest of the Bush presidency I steadily grew more and more involved in Democratic party.
NCLB requires states to develop assessments in basic skills to be given to all students in certain grades, if those states are to receive federal funding for schools. NCLB does not assert a national achievement standard; standards are set by each individual state, in line with the principle of local control of schools and because education is considered the right of the states, not the feds. NCLB also requires that teachers have a degree in education & be certified in the subject they teach. Again, the states control what this looks like. In Arizona...educators must pass a professional knowledge exam (how to teach) & a content exam...in elementary its all subjects & middle & high schools its by subject (math, science, etc.). When they do they are considered "highly qualified" to teach.
The pros/cons can fill up a book. NCLB does not dumb it down as you said earlier...it requires states to assess their students to see if they are achieving the standards the state itself set. The catch is that the lower the state sets the standards...the easier it is to achieve those standards & get federal money....maybe that's dumbing it down?
Here is a link for the wikipedia article on NCLB (I know its open source but its a quick reference & fairly reliable). It has a good section on the pros & cons...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act
I haven't heard of discovery math? I did a search on the web for it & couldn't find anything? What is your experience with it & I'll try to find out more from my teaching compadres.
You have some valid concerns on affirmative action. I do not have the research info on its long term success. As much as we would like to think we have progressed in regards to race though...the data definitely supports the fact that a white male has enormous advantages as composed to a black male...in every aspect. I know that statement opens up a tremendous amount of philosophical cans of worms...so I won't go down that road unless you want to...of course it might be fun ;-)...
Well...gotta go. Until your next response...Jon
Monday, March 9, 2009
Rick's Response
Jon,
I like some of this, and yes I have learned to embrace the liberals of the world. I also believe IMHO that democrats feed on the uneducated to promote their social reform much as the religions have how did you put it "feed on the poor and uneducated."
Believe it or not- you are not my most liberal friend. I have been thinking of this alot actually, ever since you wrote your blog professing your switch to the Democratic party. I admit that much of my assumptions is that the Democratic party recruited the weak minded that never developed an opinion on their own. When you told me you had changed parties and then I listened to what you were saying it changed some things for me. first I don't believe you had your brain sucked out (just kidding- still battling my desires to be sinical), seriously though. What makes someone change what they have known and even been so outwardly supportive- at least in image, to the exact opposite? Disapointment? Rage? I guess that is part of why we are here.
I have some questions for you Jon and anyone who might shed some light on the subjects:
Since you are in the education system, can you tell me/us some specific pros and cons to NCLB?
Is "Discovery Math" and "No Child Left Behind" the same program? What is/ are the differences if they are not?
I won't even try to respond to your comments on Rome- we may not live long enough to finish that conversation. lol
On affirmitive action- I clearly know what it is, but what specific proof does that show that it is working in a positive manner? Your the research nut (hehe) so I am sure you will find something good. You say that we have a long way to go but how is current regulation going to make a difference, moreover, will the difference outway the negativity that is spawned by those whom don't get the job they worked so hard for but did not get it because of their race, gender?
Something to consider- Politically correctness did much to make it unacceptable to even attempt to have these conversation in public- facing the problems and differences head on. I took to my email address book because it is mixed with people who I have known or met through all phases of my life. I realize that we have all taken different paths and interests over the years. I figured that since you all know me in one form or another that it would be the best place to start. It seems that ther is much to discuss for all of us. I appreciate your honesty and opinions. I am learning much about those I have known for years. Hopefully in doing this I might learn more about myself and what is important to me. If nothing else it beats filling my head with nonsense from the idiot box.
Hope all is well with everyone. This has been good for my brain, I hope for yours as well.
Take care and God bless,Rick K.
I like some of this, and yes I have learned to embrace the liberals of the world. I also believe IMHO that democrats feed on the uneducated to promote their social reform much as the religions have how did you put it "feed on the poor and uneducated."
Believe it or not- you are not my most liberal friend. I have been thinking of this alot actually, ever since you wrote your blog professing your switch to the Democratic party. I admit that much of my assumptions is that the Democratic party recruited the weak minded that never developed an opinion on their own. When you told me you had changed parties and then I listened to what you were saying it changed some things for me. first I don't believe you had your brain sucked out (just kidding- still battling my desires to be sinical), seriously though. What makes someone change what they have known and even been so outwardly supportive- at least in image, to the exact opposite? Disapointment? Rage? I guess that is part of why we are here.
I have some questions for you Jon and anyone who might shed some light on the subjects:
Since you are in the education system, can you tell me/us some specific pros and cons to NCLB?
Is "Discovery Math" and "No Child Left Behind" the same program? What is/ are the differences if they are not?
I won't even try to respond to your comments on Rome- we may not live long enough to finish that conversation. lol
On affirmitive action- I clearly know what it is, but what specific proof does that show that it is working in a positive manner? Your the research nut (hehe) so I am sure you will find something good. You say that we have a long way to go but how is current regulation going to make a difference, moreover, will the difference outway the negativity that is spawned by those whom don't get the job they worked so hard for but did not get it because of their race, gender?
Something to consider- Politically correctness did much to make it unacceptable to even attempt to have these conversation in public- facing the problems and differences head on. I took to my email address book because it is mixed with people who I have known or met through all phases of my life. I realize that we have all taken different paths and interests over the years. I figured that since you all know me in one form or another that it would be the best place to start. It seems that ther is much to discuss for all of us. I appreciate your honesty and opinions. I am learning much about those I have known for years. Hopefully in doing this I might learn more about myself and what is important to me. If nothing else it beats filling my head with nonsense from the idiot box.
Hope all is well with everyone. This has been good for my brain, I hope for yours as well.
Take care and God bless,Rick K.
Sunday, March 8, 2009
My response to the idiot...
I will try to respond to this as best as I can…
Since you sent the email to the person in your first question…ask me yourself who I am & I will happily tell you…
I did not quote failed governments without a military because I was NOT arguing for the United States to get rid of its military…
I will repeat this SLOWLY for you…I feel the US military should be reorganized away from its cold war force structure to a more responsive & efficient force so that it can more effectively fight the wars we appear to be facing now…plus this would eliminate the wasteful spending on programs whose cost exceeds their apparent usefulness.
I will leave your history repeats lesson without a response... your thought process speaks for itself…
I am so glad we have the big stick…I truly sleep better at night. I was just thinking the other day how glad I am that Spain & England haven’t combined with Israel to invade us. Such a relief!
I always thought the reason America stayed safe was that because no nation or pact of nations have ever had the resources to cross the Pacific or Atlantic oceans in sustainable numbers to conquer us…I guess my “location is everything” theory is obsolete now…
Okay, okay…you are right that our navies are a factor in that deterrence. I couldn’t be a complete ass.
I enjoy debating ideas immensely…but please try to have coherent thoughts backed with logical thinking and facts that we can argue about so that we don’t sling mud like you & I just have…it’s a waste of time for both of us!
The head in the sand guy…Jon
Since you sent the email to the person in your first question…ask me yourself who I am & I will happily tell you…
I did not quote failed governments without a military because I was NOT arguing for the United States to get rid of its military…
I will repeat this SLOWLY for you…I feel the US military should be reorganized away from its cold war force structure to a more responsive & efficient force so that it can more effectively fight the wars we appear to be facing now…plus this would eliminate the wasteful spending on programs whose cost exceeds their apparent usefulness.
I will leave your history repeats lesson without a response... your thought process speaks for itself…
I am so glad we have the big stick…I truly sleep better at night. I was just thinking the other day how glad I am that Spain & England haven’t combined with Israel to invade us. Such a relief!
I always thought the reason America stayed safe was that because no nation or pact of nations have ever had the resources to cross the Pacific or Atlantic oceans in sustainable numbers to conquer us…I guess my “location is everything” theory is obsolete now…
Okay, okay…you are right that our navies are a factor in that deterrence. I couldn’t be a complete ass.
I enjoy debating ideas immensely…but please try to have coherent thoughts backed with logical thinking and facts that we can argue about so that we don’t sling mud like you & I just have…it’s a waste of time for both of us!
The head in the sand guy…Jon
A fourth person jumps in...
Here is another one of Rick's friends ideas of our discussion...
Rich,Took a long time to calm down to reply to this one.
Took that team spirit approach that worked so well in classes.
Two questions;Who is the person who talks like those with their head in the sand? A Friend I hope you can show the way.
While he quotes history so well I found it interesting he did not talk about the failed Governments that had no military or turned their backs on them (their military). Those Societies appeared to slip back a decade or two, or just quietly fell as an influence in the world, thus their country became unimportant to others and some ceased to exist. History repeats its self if one does not learn. Look back into history at Japan, USSR, Rome, England, and hey look deep in history at the Inca civilization (once a very large power in their time). Or one can look at WW1&2 the US like England did not want war at any cost and almost lost it all (remember Pearl). If that's hard then stay in the near past history. Iran, Korea, Vietnam, or better yet when the military was cut in half by Clinton we ended up in Iraq (twice) & that other dirt hole and if that's too long ago THINK 9/11....
If one needs names to research under world dominance or deliverance look for;
Hitler, Stalin,orJapanor try Muslims (while this religion is peaceful and forgiving in writing not all counties preach it).
There are those around the world that would love to have the big stick and crush the US, Spain, England, Israel. I am interested in knowing what this authors big plan is if not a strong military. "Showing its might" around the world helped prevent attacks on America, ever wonder why we have not been invaded like others.
There are always better ways to do anything, he just failed to write in his assay.Anyway that's my soapbox, best to all!!.....Go NAVY!!!!!! OK the AF, Army, & Marines too, would not want to leave them out.....;)
Rich,Took a long time to calm down to reply to this one.
Took that team spirit approach that worked so well in classes.
Two questions;Who is the person who talks like those with their head in the sand? A Friend I hope you can show the way.
While he quotes history so well I found it interesting he did not talk about the failed Governments that had no military or turned their backs on them (their military). Those Societies appeared to slip back a decade or two, or just quietly fell as an influence in the world, thus their country became unimportant to others and some ceased to exist. History repeats its self if one does not learn. Look back into history at Japan, USSR, Rome, England, and hey look deep in history at the Inca civilization (once a very large power in their time). Or one can look at WW1&2 the US like England did not want war at any cost and almost lost it all (remember Pearl). If that's hard then stay in the near past history. Iran, Korea, Vietnam, or better yet when the military was cut in half by Clinton we ended up in Iraq (twice) & that other dirt hole and if that's too long ago THINK 9/11....
If one needs names to research under world dominance or deliverance look for;
Hitler, Stalin,orJapanor try Muslims (while this religion is peaceful and forgiving in writing not all counties preach it).
There are those around the world that would love to have the big stick and crush the US, Spain, England, Israel. I am interested in knowing what this authors big plan is if not a strong military. "Showing its might" around the world helped prevent attacks on America, ever wonder why we have not been invaded like others.
There are always better ways to do anything, he just failed to write in his assay.Anyway that's my soapbox, best to all!!.....Go NAVY!!!!!! OK the AF, Army, & Marines too, would not want to leave them out.....;)
My responses...
Here are my responses to Rick & Rick's friend...this is getting to be a full-time job!
Some great thoughts here. In order to have a life outside of this discussion I will hit those points I disagree with...
In response to Rick's thoughts, I disagree why Rome fell. There are adherents to single factors, I think a combination of such factors as Christianity, decadence, lead, monetary trouble, and military problems caused the Fall of Rome. All of these factors led to the creation of divergent forces that the nation-state could not deal with effectively & simultaneously. Also…Rome didn’t “give” the multiple cultures a common way of life…they forced it upon them so that the empire could exist.
In its simplest analogy…Rome’s conquered empire became too large for the ROMANS to run effectively…and everyone went back to their own cultures & identities they had before Rome conquered them. To your point, military degradation did play a part in the collapse.
Affirmative action simply tries to provide balance to our current situation. As an example, when I worked at Best Buy they had 51 % of their total workforce either female or minority. However, those numbers did not exist in management…less than 9% of Best Buy management was female or minority. Best Buy does not deal with government sales contracts & therefore is not held to affirmative action standards. Although this nation has come a long way, I think we still have to figure out how to improve the opportunities for minorities.
How does NCLB dumb down the masses? NCLB strives to correct the problem you encountered…the education standard should be same in Utah as Missouri or wherever. Before NCLB we had no uniform educational standard throughout the nation…NCLB requires the states to have that standard. Now, there are major problems with NCLB…first & foremost it allows the states to set the standards…which is like allowing the consumer to choose what price he’s going to pay for that cheese. Second, the feds didn’t fund NCLB 100%...so the states have to bear the brunt of the cost…which makes the poor states poorer…
Finally, your challenge on open minds is a good one…have you devoted the same energies to that liberal ;-) view?
Okay, now on to Mr. Freeland’s thoughts…
I disagree with the summary that previous thoughts put America as the only one who has committed egregious sins and acts. I never said that America was worse than any other nation on earth…I feel that America is the greatest nation and we should all be very proud of our accomplishments and history. I never intended my tone or one-sided facts to diminish that belief of mine.
I believe that what makes America great is that we are inclusive and compassionate…the periods of history you mentioned exemplify that national trait at its best I think.
I believe the emails and articles branding all Muslims and Islam as a whole as evil are examples of America at its worst…ignorant, fearful and antagonistic.
I think you are completely correct when you say that…” Overall, diplomacy, understanding, love, compassion, and a desire for peace should always be the first option. However, to think that alone will cure the world's ills is dangerously naïve…”
I also believe that thinking military solutions will have more impact than diplomacy & inclusivity is naïve as well.
Just my two cents…Jon
Some great thoughts here. In order to have a life outside of this discussion I will hit those points I disagree with...
In response to Rick's thoughts, I disagree why Rome fell. There are adherents to single factors, I think a combination of such factors as Christianity, decadence, lead, monetary trouble, and military problems caused the Fall of Rome. All of these factors led to the creation of divergent forces that the nation-state could not deal with effectively & simultaneously. Also…Rome didn’t “give” the multiple cultures a common way of life…they forced it upon them so that the empire could exist.
In its simplest analogy…Rome’s conquered empire became too large for the ROMANS to run effectively…and everyone went back to their own cultures & identities they had before Rome conquered them. To your point, military degradation did play a part in the collapse.
Affirmative action simply tries to provide balance to our current situation. As an example, when I worked at Best Buy they had 51 % of their total workforce either female or minority. However, those numbers did not exist in management…less than 9% of Best Buy management was female or minority. Best Buy does not deal with government sales contracts & therefore is not held to affirmative action standards. Although this nation has come a long way, I think we still have to figure out how to improve the opportunities for minorities.
How does NCLB dumb down the masses? NCLB strives to correct the problem you encountered…the education standard should be same in Utah as Missouri or wherever. Before NCLB we had no uniform educational standard throughout the nation…NCLB requires the states to have that standard. Now, there are major problems with NCLB…first & foremost it allows the states to set the standards…which is like allowing the consumer to choose what price he’s going to pay for that cheese. Second, the feds didn’t fund NCLB 100%...so the states have to bear the brunt of the cost…which makes the poor states poorer…
Finally, your challenge on open minds is a good one…have you devoted the same energies to that liberal ;-) view?
Okay, now on to Mr. Freeland’s thoughts…
I disagree with the summary that previous thoughts put America as the only one who has committed egregious sins and acts. I never said that America was worse than any other nation on earth…I feel that America is the greatest nation and we should all be very proud of our accomplishments and history. I never intended my tone or one-sided facts to diminish that belief of mine.
I believe that what makes America great is that we are inclusive and compassionate…the periods of history you mentioned exemplify that national trait at its best I think.
I believe the emails and articles branding all Muslims and Islam as a whole as evil are examples of America at its worst…ignorant, fearful and antagonistic.
I think you are completely correct when you say that…” Overall, diplomacy, understanding, love, compassion, and a desire for peace should always be the first option. However, to think that alone will cure the world's ills is dangerously naïve…”
I also believe that thinking military solutions will have more impact than diplomacy & inclusivity is naïve as well.
Just my two cents…Jon
Saturday, March 7, 2009
Rick's newest thoughts...
Here is Rick's latest response...
Cliff, First and foremost- it is great to hear from you. I hear great things about you and your progress at CAMDS, keep up the good work. How is school going?
On to our agreements and disagreements.
I ABSOLUTELY agree that at the heart of our nations lack of ability to achieve greater things lies in wasting away hours in front of the idiot box. That is what has contributed to me lobbing political grenades at those I know the most to at least attempt to find some truthes in what is going on in the world and hopefully share the positives of all to my children, not just my biased opinion. I hope that as all of you have children you have noticed the holes in our childrens understanding of the world passed the mall, and as they get inevitably closer to going out on their own, that we may collectively find mutual and reasonable positives to share with them before their heads are filled by someone with a biased/ unfounded ideas. In essence, I hope that we may be able to at a minimum find a way to sift through the atrosities both new and old, mix in the great ideas humanity has discovered, and share these not yet discovered ideas with our children so that they might aid in creating that opportunity of equality mixed with hope and knowledge.
To begin with some of my disagreements I would start with Deterrance:
Why did Rome fail? Was it because of their military? their military allowed their conquered enemies the freedom to join and even advance in rank based on their loyalty to the empire and their performance on the battle field. If my memory serves me I believe Romes downfall was brought on by the political rot from within. To say that it did not fail and that we are a continuation of the Roman empire is Naive, we are similar, but as similar to the Roman Empire as we are to the Ming dynasty; similarities perhaps but not the same. Sorry, rambling here, my point is this- Rome started out successful by uniting multiple cultures with incompatible differences by giving them all a common way of life. There strength was their military. Maybe that is it, a Democratic Military.
Is deterance right, perhaps not, but without a military, there will be fear, either real as what happen to the peace keeping nations of what is now China, or imagined fear. You said it best, people trade freedoms for security. I suppose it is a doubled edge sword, but if it doesn't convert the world to devoted Americans, it at least allows those that are already devoted Americans the opportunity to ponder ideas on how to spread love, hope, and peace through out the world.
Military Image is what holds back our nations greatness. I am not saying that we have made sound military decisions but the media could at least show some of the good things our military has done. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2006/07/13/VI2006071300741.html
I said before that carriers were the tip of the spear for our war machine but they are also our greatest asset when it comes to world humanity. The media rarely breaks into the prime time idiot box to show photos of our Marines, Navy, National guard providing food and water when natural desasters hit as it did during Katrina, Sri Lanka, the link above. That is what needs to be the new level of deterance. The idea that a military with the capability to destroy the world several times over also is used to make the world better for those whom were not given an equal starting point.
On a side question: how does the idea of unfair advantage at starting factor in to anyones success in Seligman? If anything we were all at an unfair disadvantage yet all seem to be doing rather well without the assistance of equal opportunity or the welfare system.
As for paying for our sins in regards to slavery, reservations, etc; How? Our government gave money for education to EVERY indian I graduated with- that wanted it. Nearly all are DEAD, handicap, or are in jail. How did "paying for their sins" help any of them? Wesley Davis took the same road you and I did. He joined the military and learned the fundamentals that are guaranteed to all Americans. That fundamental is guaranteed to those who choose to take the challenge to see what they are made of and further yet, what they can become by believing in their brothers in arms over their brothers at home. Sure we can all rationalize and say that this is coincidence, that he is succeeding because of several other reasons, that you, Jon and I are doing well because of a multitude of differences but consider this, the same ideas that we learned by playing sports in school taught us how to work with others, which is the same fundamental- should I say core value that the military builds our military. Sports are truly nothing more than peacetime war. I am sure Jon can do the research on this one.
Any ways, as for paying for sins of our fathers, I disagree. For those whose ancestors committed the sins, what good does it do to have their desendance pay for what they did not do? Are we not all individuals? I thought we were trying to make us all equal? doesn't affirmitive action just continue multitudes of reasons to carry on the resentment. Yes, the "white man" brought the slaves to America, but they bought them from African tribes that already sold their enemies at market, into this slavery we are paying for. Should we hold the farmer accountable for selling the potato to McDonalds causing us to be fat? Or worse should we make McDonalds pay tribute to those that are fat because they had a hand in it? Come on, when would it end? Negativity breads negativity.Even if you look at this from the other side you have what is happening in areas like Atlanta. You can label me racist, call me insensitive, but call it what you like: the "white man" moves out of communities that become black communities because of "reverse racism" created by that very affirmitive action put in place to equalize the playing field. Haven't we made up for "keeping the brother down?" For crying out loud- we have a black president, with a muslim/mid-eastern name? Tell me how I am keeping Mr Hussein-Obama from succeeding? Tell me how I should pay for sins committed against his wife? I didn't see my company put in a jungle gym outside of my office so I could watch my kids play, did you get one? All I am saying is we will never reach equality as a nation until we learn from the past, move on, and protect ALL under the same set of books.
As for those who strap bombs to themselves and run into crowded areas, I could easily call it cowardous, but I have a hard time calling them "otherwise reasonable." Our own government proved that under extreme situations you can train anyone to do your bidding. See previous discussions for further info but keep in mind- if you started training your children to hate cheese and all of those who support it, you could probably have them pretty convinced to strike out against the local dairy. Now quit your job, blame all of your failures, and their, hunger, and negativity to your childs lessons as you only spend time with him to talk about how evil the cheese makers are as you teach him terrorist tactics to effectivly blow up the cheese factory. Now top this off by telling him how proud you would be if he would strap a bomb to his person and prove his love to you- Tell me now- what do we learn first, love of our parents or how to be otherwise reasonable?
On a final note: no child left behind is not only irresponsible, it is unaceptable. Tell me how dumbing down the masses is going to make us all better? Did you know that all- ALL of my children had to re-learn math? they were coasting through the Utah education system with A's and the ocasional B, except for Richelle because she was bored and non conforming. When we moved to a poor community that couldn't afford and even refused to update their books to "discovery math", my children that were coasting through with A's couldn't even maintain a D for the first year we were here. Richelle joined study group volunteering to stay an extra hour 3 times a week, an extra hour of her own time on her own free will. She is getting 1 B and the rest A's because she is challenged. Are we to turn our back on the human ability to say that there are no more Beethovens, Einstiens, or Newtons? are we to say that we are betterto dumb down the society so that those less fortunate can thrive? If that is true then perhaps I am living in the wrong place. How does that support democrocay and free markets?
IMHO it seems that greed at the top causes our recent problems. I fear the day that our dumbed down society reaches the working population. You think it is bad now that 1% controls what was it? 27% of all the money in the country?
Ok, sorry if I sound angry or fanatical. I believe there are truths in what you have said, as there were truth's in the email I have yet to respond to (Jon). I also believe that I do not have all the right answers and that I have much to learn before I start sharing this with my children. In short, I am open minded despite how closed my ideas might seem to my liberated friends( sorry- couldn't help the subtle jab)lol. I challenge all of you to read with open minds, to devote as much of the energies you have thus far invested to sharing your view, to devote at least as much into helping us in sifting out the positives of humanity. We can't change the world on our own, but perhaps collectively we can do our part in helping our children with being responsible for their little parts in the world. If we can do this then maybe we can all someday look back with satisfaction of leaving this world better than we found it.
Cliff, I thank you for joining in. I look forward to hearing your response. As always,Take care and God bless, Rick K.
Cliff, First and foremost- it is great to hear from you. I hear great things about you and your progress at CAMDS, keep up the good work. How is school going?
On to our agreements and disagreements.
I ABSOLUTELY agree that at the heart of our nations lack of ability to achieve greater things lies in wasting away hours in front of the idiot box. That is what has contributed to me lobbing political grenades at those I know the most to at least attempt to find some truthes in what is going on in the world and hopefully share the positives of all to my children, not just my biased opinion. I hope that as all of you have children you have noticed the holes in our childrens understanding of the world passed the mall, and as they get inevitably closer to going out on their own, that we may collectively find mutual and reasonable positives to share with them before their heads are filled by someone with a biased/ unfounded ideas. In essence, I hope that we may be able to at a minimum find a way to sift through the atrosities both new and old, mix in the great ideas humanity has discovered, and share these not yet discovered ideas with our children so that they might aid in creating that opportunity of equality mixed with hope and knowledge.
To begin with some of my disagreements I would start with Deterrance:
Why did Rome fail? Was it because of their military? their military allowed their conquered enemies the freedom to join and even advance in rank based on their loyalty to the empire and their performance on the battle field. If my memory serves me I believe Romes downfall was brought on by the political rot from within. To say that it did not fail and that we are a continuation of the Roman empire is Naive, we are similar, but as similar to the Roman Empire as we are to the Ming dynasty; similarities perhaps but not the same. Sorry, rambling here, my point is this- Rome started out successful by uniting multiple cultures with incompatible differences by giving them all a common way of life. There strength was their military. Maybe that is it, a Democratic Military.
Is deterance right, perhaps not, but without a military, there will be fear, either real as what happen to the peace keeping nations of what is now China, or imagined fear. You said it best, people trade freedoms for security. I suppose it is a doubled edge sword, but if it doesn't convert the world to devoted Americans, it at least allows those that are already devoted Americans the opportunity to ponder ideas on how to spread love, hope, and peace through out the world.
Military Image is what holds back our nations greatness. I am not saying that we have made sound military decisions but the media could at least show some of the good things our military has done. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2006/07/13/VI2006071300741.html
I said before that carriers were the tip of the spear for our war machine but they are also our greatest asset when it comes to world humanity. The media rarely breaks into the prime time idiot box to show photos of our Marines, Navy, National guard providing food and water when natural desasters hit as it did during Katrina, Sri Lanka, the link above. That is what needs to be the new level of deterance. The idea that a military with the capability to destroy the world several times over also is used to make the world better for those whom were not given an equal starting point.
On a side question: how does the idea of unfair advantage at starting factor in to anyones success in Seligman? If anything we were all at an unfair disadvantage yet all seem to be doing rather well without the assistance of equal opportunity or the welfare system.
As for paying for our sins in regards to slavery, reservations, etc; How? Our government gave money for education to EVERY indian I graduated with- that wanted it. Nearly all are DEAD, handicap, or are in jail. How did "paying for their sins" help any of them? Wesley Davis took the same road you and I did. He joined the military and learned the fundamentals that are guaranteed to all Americans. That fundamental is guaranteed to those who choose to take the challenge to see what they are made of and further yet, what they can become by believing in their brothers in arms over their brothers at home. Sure we can all rationalize and say that this is coincidence, that he is succeeding because of several other reasons, that you, Jon and I are doing well because of a multitude of differences but consider this, the same ideas that we learned by playing sports in school taught us how to work with others, which is the same fundamental- should I say core value that the military builds our military. Sports are truly nothing more than peacetime war. I am sure Jon can do the research on this one.
Any ways, as for paying for sins of our fathers, I disagree. For those whose ancestors committed the sins, what good does it do to have their desendance pay for what they did not do? Are we not all individuals? I thought we were trying to make us all equal? doesn't affirmitive action just continue multitudes of reasons to carry on the resentment. Yes, the "white man" brought the slaves to America, but they bought them from African tribes that already sold their enemies at market, into this slavery we are paying for. Should we hold the farmer accountable for selling the potato to McDonalds causing us to be fat? Or worse should we make McDonalds pay tribute to those that are fat because they had a hand in it? Come on, when would it end? Negativity breads negativity.Even if you look at this from the other side you have what is happening in areas like Atlanta. You can label me racist, call me insensitive, but call it what you like: the "white man" moves out of communities that become black communities because of "reverse racism" created by that very affirmitive action put in place to equalize the playing field. Haven't we made up for "keeping the brother down?" For crying out loud- we have a black president, with a muslim/mid-eastern name? Tell me how I am keeping Mr Hussein-Obama from succeeding? Tell me how I should pay for sins committed against his wife? I didn't see my company put in a jungle gym outside of my office so I could watch my kids play, did you get one? All I am saying is we will never reach equality as a nation until we learn from the past, move on, and protect ALL under the same set of books.
As for those who strap bombs to themselves and run into crowded areas, I could easily call it cowardous, but I have a hard time calling them "otherwise reasonable." Our own government proved that under extreme situations you can train anyone to do your bidding. See previous discussions for further info but keep in mind- if you started training your children to hate cheese and all of those who support it, you could probably have them pretty convinced to strike out against the local dairy. Now quit your job, blame all of your failures, and their, hunger, and negativity to your childs lessons as you only spend time with him to talk about how evil the cheese makers are as you teach him terrorist tactics to effectivly blow up the cheese factory. Now top this off by telling him how proud you would be if he would strap a bomb to his person and prove his love to you- Tell me now- what do we learn first, love of our parents or how to be otherwise reasonable?
On a final note: no child left behind is not only irresponsible, it is unaceptable. Tell me how dumbing down the masses is going to make us all better? Did you know that all- ALL of my children had to re-learn math? they were coasting through the Utah education system with A's and the ocasional B, except for Richelle because she was bored and non conforming. When we moved to a poor community that couldn't afford and even refused to update their books to "discovery math", my children that were coasting through with A's couldn't even maintain a D for the first year we were here. Richelle joined study group volunteering to stay an extra hour 3 times a week, an extra hour of her own time on her own free will. She is getting 1 B and the rest A's because she is challenged. Are we to turn our back on the human ability to say that there are no more Beethovens, Einstiens, or Newtons? are we to say that we are betterto dumb down the society so that those less fortunate can thrive? If that is true then perhaps I am living in the wrong place. How does that support democrocay and free markets?
IMHO it seems that greed at the top causes our recent problems. I fear the day that our dumbed down society reaches the working population. You think it is bad now that 1% controls what was it? 27% of all the money in the country?
Ok, sorry if I sound angry or fanatical. I believe there are truths in what you have said, as there were truth's in the email I have yet to respond to (Jon). I also believe that I do not have all the right answers and that I have much to learn before I start sharing this with my children. In short, I am open minded despite how closed my ideas might seem to my liberated friends( sorry- couldn't help the subtle jab)lol. I challenge all of you to read with open minds, to devote as much of the energies you have thus far invested to sharing your view, to devote at least as much into helping us in sifting out the positives of humanity. We can't change the world on our own, but perhaps collectively we can do our part in helping our children with being responsible for their little parts in the world. If we can do this then maybe we can all someday look back with satisfaction of leaving this world better than we found it.
Cliff, I thank you for joining in. I look forward to hearing your response. As always,Take care and God bless, Rick K.
Other's thoughts
This is from a gentleman named Adam that is a friend of Rick's...
Rick,
As I said thanks for sharing your thoughts. Cliff, good to hear from you. Rick, I generally agree with the tone of your arguments that you are trying to convey. Most notably, I read from your arguments that you are trying to convey a sense of pride of being an American and the principles that the country upholds.
Several of those who have countered all bring up compelling counterarguments and irrefutable facts. Additionally, I think it is important to challenge and skeptical of One's Government, Religion, and others (I guess I fit the profile that Uncle Rickover wanted for a nuke).However, the impression that I get and the tone that is conveyed is that only America has committed egregrious sins and act. Also the facts support a one sided story that we as Americans are: (1) far more ethnocentric and religiously intolerant then others (2) that being ethnocentric in and of it self is a negative thing (3) our history is far more reprehensible with respect to discrimination then others (4) most of American progress was accomplished by manipulating and exploiting others and (5) Americans lack of understanding of others is the root cause of most of the problems.
As a person who can trace his genealogy back to the Revolutionary times, I am immensely proud of America with all its faults. What was done to Native Americans and African Slaves was reprehensible. However, don't forget from the beginning many white challenged and called it a curse on the country. My own great, great, great grandfather fought for the United States in the Civil War to end slavery. I find it downright insulting to claim that Americans who fought in WWI and WWII served that cause under American's White Manifest Destiny umbrella. One excerpt from a Stephen Ambrose book talks about how as the US Army fought across Europe in WWII, as the Army liberated the populace there was a sense of relief because the American GI's generally were kind to them whereas with the previous occupiers they were subjected to immense cruelty.
The Anglo-Saxon, White, Protestant value system that came to America in the 1500 and 1600's has many faults of human nature that one can find in virtually every culture that exists. However, to paint it in a one sided negative view misses so much of the rich history. America has been an innovative, prosperous and vibrant society that has been one of the most charitable, giving, and accepting society that the world has ever seen. I don't have exact figures on American charitable giving but I have seen past numbers and they are awe inspiring.
I will continue more of these but need to go to dinner with my wife. With the discussion related to Islam. I get the impression of many that it is solely the Western Christian societies who is responsible for radical Islam. Of course there is longstanding conflict that dates back to the Crusades. But to absolve radical Islamists of their own ethnocentricity; failures, greed, and manipulation within their own societies on macro scale; and so much more; is akin to say the abusive husband was justified in beating his wife. I went back recently and was reading about Todd and Lisa Beamer. Todd being the guy on Flight 93 who said, "Let's Roll." His death left two fatherless boys and a pregnant wife. Tell me any American should not be justified in thinking in national interests.
Overall, diplomacy, understanding, love, compassion, and a desire for peace should always be the first option. However, to think that alone will cure the world's ills is dangerously naive. Anyone that has been confronted by the class bully knows this. Or in other terms, if we felt that it would work, we would never lock our doors. Human nature has the capacity for great evil but it does have the capacity for great good.
The world is a challenging place. America and Americans are imperfect. However, to constantly self flagellate and not recognize its greatness is to me missing so much. Of course as Dennis Miller says, "I didn't mean to get off on a rant. That's my opinion. I could be wrong." Rick keeping rocking
Rick,
As I said thanks for sharing your thoughts. Cliff, good to hear from you. Rick, I generally agree with the tone of your arguments that you are trying to convey. Most notably, I read from your arguments that you are trying to convey a sense of pride of being an American and the principles that the country upholds.
Several of those who have countered all bring up compelling counterarguments and irrefutable facts. Additionally, I think it is important to challenge and skeptical of One's Government, Religion, and others (I guess I fit the profile that Uncle Rickover wanted for a nuke).However, the impression that I get and the tone that is conveyed is that only America has committed egregrious sins and act. Also the facts support a one sided story that we as Americans are: (1) far more ethnocentric and religiously intolerant then others (2) that being ethnocentric in and of it self is a negative thing (3) our history is far more reprehensible with respect to discrimination then others (4) most of American progress was accomplished by manipulating and exploiting others and (5) Americans lack of understanding of others is the root cause of most of the problems.
As a person who can trace his genealogy back to the Revolutionary times, I am immensely proud of America with all its faults. What was done to Native Americans and African Slaves was reprehensible. However, don't forget from the beginning many white challenged and called it a curse on the country. My own great, great, great grandfather fought for the United States in the Civil War to end slavery. I find it downright insulting to claim that Americans who fought in WWI and WWII served that cause under American's White Manifest Destiny umbrella. One excerpt from a Stephen Ambrose book talks about how as the US Army fought across Europe in WWII, as the Army liberated the populace there was a sense of relief because the American GI's generally were kind to them whereas with the previous occupiers they were subjected to immense cruelty.
The Anglo-Saxon, White, Protestant value system that came to America in the 1500 and 1600's has many faults of human nature that one can find in virtually every culture that exists. However, to paint it in a one sided negative view misses so much of the rich history. America has been an innovative, prosperous and vibrant society that has been one of the most charitable, giving, and accepting society that the world has ever seen. I don't have exact figures on American charitable giving but I have seen past numbers and they are awe inspiring.
I will continue more of these but need to go to dinner with my wife. With the discussion related to Islam. I get the impression of many that it is solely the Western Christian societies who is responsible for radical Islam. Of course there is longstanding conflict that dates back to the Crusades. But to absolve radical Islamists of their own ethnocentricity; failures, greed, and manipulation within their own societies on macro scale; and so much more; is akin to say the abusive husband was justified in beating his wife. I went back recently and was reading about Todd and Lisa Beamer. Todd being the guy on Flight 93 who said, "Let's Roll." His death left two fatherless boys and a pregnant wife. Tell me any American should not be justified in thinking in national interests.
Overall, diplomacy, understanding, love, compassion, and a desire for peace should always be the first option. However, to think that alone will cure the world's ills is dangerously naive. Anyone that has been confronted by the class bully knows this. Or in other terms, if we felt that it would work, we would never lock our doors. Human nature has the capacity for great evil but it does have the capacity for great good.
The world is a challenging place. America and Americans are imperfect. However, to constantly self flagellate and not recognize its greatness is to me missing so much. Of course as Dennis Miller says, "I didn't mean to get off on a rant. That's my opinion. I could be wrong." Rick keeping rocking
Some food for thought...
Rick & I's debate has been copied to many of Rick's friends and I got this response from Cliff Shaw...who's been reading our back & forth.
Cliff & I went to the same high school in Seligman, Arizona. I do not know him as well as I would like because he graduated a few years ahead of me...his younger brother Fernando was in my class.
Here are his thoughts & I must say he expresses his thoughts much more succinctly than I do!
Thought I’d spare some of the cc’s on this e-mail who are probably to busy watching Dancing with the Stars anyways. Jon – I’ve enjoyed reading your responses and thought I’d join in, as I too like a spirited and healthy debate. Rick, I personally think the whole idea of deterrence to counter the Soviet’s supposed world domination and the resultant cold war were unnecessary, big wastes of time, money, lives, etc. and a result of the failure of diplomacy. Why did we send American troops to Viet Nam and Korea ; to keep the Soviets out. We feared that the Soviets were bent on world domination, yet we never understood the internal conflicts in those countries and why the communist forces gained a footing there in the first place.
Regardless how impressive our military is, was, or will be, you can never simply invade a sovereign nation and turn them into loyal Americans. If we haven’t learned that we will continue to make the same foreign policy mistakes. The US operates from an ethnocentric position; we have since the first settlers stepped foot on our continent. Our forefathers believed that the white man was destined to rule the world as ordained by god. We have not moved far from that original position. We deal with all other cultures from a position of power, believing that democracy, Christianity, and free markets are the best for all. Ultimately I believe the democracy and free markets are the best systems current out there, yet people have always been willing to sacrifice individual freedoms for security. The former Soviet Union is a great example; we applauded the collapse of the Soviet system, declaring that democracy had won the day. Yet as economic reforms and free markets stalled and failed, the old regime has slowly regained power and most of the former soviet states are nothing near democratic.
You have to ask your self, why an otherwise reasonable person would strap an explosive device to their body and wander into a crowded market place full of women and children and blow themselves up. Simply saying that is what Islam teaches them to do is shallow and I don’t buy that for a second. Ever read Benazir Bhutto’s Reconciliation: Islam, Democracy, and the West? She was assassinated about two months after her return to Pakistan a little over a year ago. She believed Islam and Democracy were far from incompatible; in fact, she believed Islam and Democracy go hand in hand. Although the Islamic extremists were able to keep her from rising to power in Pakistan , she represented the majority of peace loving Muslims. If you oppress a people, take away their dignity, economic opportunity, and any hope for a better future they turn to religion for answers. They are then puppets in the hands of extremists who can twist the word of the Bible or Qur’an or any other religious text to suit their own agenda. You can’t fight this with guns, or tanks, or bombs. Kill one, kill hundreds, even thousands; you just martyr them and twice as many spring up to take their place. You fight this with hope; hope for a future; hope for economic prosperity, and security.
One final note with regard to slavery, Indian reservations, etc: we should be held responsible for the actions of our forefathers if we are to ever right the wrong. The writing of John Rawls has influenced my thinking tremendously. Rawls points out that people are born with different faculties and into different social conditions that have enormous implications on a person’s future prospects. These differing conditions, or starting point, that each of us grow up in are advantageous for some, and disadvantageous for others. Moreover, Rawls believes these initial conditions are the main sources of inequality among people. What Rawls proposes are ways to reduce those initial differences. Rawls recognizes that equality of opportunity can never be achieved from our initial starting point, and suggests that is why concern for reducing the inequalities of the resultant outcome is in order. Rawl’s suggest that when presented with several opportunities that offer mutually improving outcomes, we should select the option that that narrows the resultant inequality in outcome as measured between the topmost and bottom most advantaged groups. Thus programs like No Child Left Behind and the always divisive notion of Affirmative Action seek to help bridge the gap between those that are most affluent and those that are the most disadvantaged.
Just food for thought.
Cliff
Cliff & I went to the same high school in Seligman, Arizona. I do not know him as well as I would like because he graduated a few years ahead of me...his younger brother Fernando was in my class.
Here are his thoughts & I must say he expresses his thoughts much more succinctly than I do!
Thought I’d spare some of the cc’s on this e-mail who are probably to busy watching Dancing with the Stars anyways. Jon – I’ve enjoyed reading your responses and thought I’d join in, as I too like a spirited and healthy debate. Rick, I personally think the whole idea of deterrence to counter the Soviet’s supposed world domination and the resultant cold war were unnecessary, big wastes of time, money, lives, etc. and a result of the failure of diplomacy. Why did we send American troops to Viet Nam and Korea ; to keep the Soviets out. We feared that the Soviets were bent on world domination, yet we never understood the internal conflicts in those countries and why the communist forces gained a footing there in the first place.
Regardless how impressive our military is, was, or will be, you can never simply invade a sovereign nation and turn them into loyal Americans. If we haven’t learned that we will continue to make the same foreign policy mistakes. The US operates from an ethnocentric position; we have since the first settlers stepped foot on our continent. Our forefathers believed that the white man was destined to rule the world as ordained by god. We have not moved far from that original position. We deal with all other cultures from a position of power, believing that democracy, Christianity, and free markets are the best for all. Ultimately I believe the democracy and free markets are the best systems current out there, yet people have always been willing to sacrifice individual freedoms for security. The former Soviet Union is a great example; we applauded the collapse of the Soviet system, declaring that democracy had won the day. Yet as economic reforms and free markets stalled and failed, the old regime has slowly regained power and most of the former soviet states are nothing near democratic.
You have to ask your self, why an otherwise reasonable person would strap an explosive device to their body and wander into a crowded market place full of women and children and blow themselves up. Simply saying that is what Islam teaches them to do is shallow and I don’t buy that for a second. Ever read Benazir Bhutto’s Reconciliation: Islam, Democracy, and the West? She was assassinated about two months after her return to Pakistan a little over a year ago. She believed Islam and Democracy were far from incompatible; in fact, she believed Islam and Democracy go hand in hand. Although the Islamic extremists were able to keep her from rising to power in Pakistan , she represented the majority of peace loving Muslims. If you oppress a people, take away their dignity, economic opportunity, and any hope for a better future they turn to religion for answers. They are then puppets in the hands of extremists who can twist the word of the Bible or Qur’an or any other religious text to suit their own agenda. You can’t fight this with guns, or tanks, or bombs. Kill one, kill hundreds, even thousands; you just martyr them and twice as many spring up to take their place. You fight this with hope; hope for a future; hope for economic prosperity, and security.
One final note with regard to slavery, Indian reservations, etc: we should be held responsible for the actions of our forefathers if we are to ever right the wrong. The writing of John Rawls has influenced my thinking tremendously. Rawls points out that people are born with different faculties and into different social conditions that have enormous implications on a person’s future prospects. These differing conditions, or starting point, that each of us grow up in are advantageous for some, and disadvantageous for others. Moreover, Rawls believes these initial conditions are the main sources of inequality among people. What Rawls proposes are ways to reduce those initial differences. Rawls recognizes that equality of opportunity can never be achieved from our initial starting point, and suggests that is why concern for reducing the inequalities of the resultant outcome is in order. Rawl’s suggest that when presented with several opportunities that offer mutually improving outcomes, we should select the option that that narrows the resultant inequality in outcome as measured between the topmost and bottom most advantaged groups. Thus programs like No Child Left Behind and the always divisive notion of Affirmative Action seek to help bridge the gap between those that are most affluent and those that are the most disadvantaged.
Just food for thought.
Cliff
Wednesday, March 4, 2009
My reply...
All right…now we’re debating!! I’ve got to confess…I love this shit…even though we won’t change each other’s minds…here goes!!
Please tell me you were joking or egging me on with your Germany theory…I don’t see how you can credibly present that theory in today’s world…but here goes in case you’re serious…
Germany is one of the strongest economic members of the EU & a war would seriously threaten their economic & political well-being. They did have a history of starting 2 world wars (over 60 years ago btw!!)…but the stimulus for both were poor economic conditions…the direct opposite of their affairs today. Obviously, Germany and all nations in the world are feeling the effects of the global recession but I do not see how a political party in Germany gains a majority and sufficient momentum to start a regional conflict that could escalate to global?!?!
You’re right about the retaliation part…even more reason to not make decisions in anger & think of the long-term ramifications of our actions.
I missed how we got onto genocide & its effectiveness? Just because something is effective does not warrant a positive argument for it. That’s where your religious morals should kick in…
I disagree on your religion argument. Religious faith is a vehicle to find peace or meaning in your life. If that’s what you need, then more power to you. Why must I believe in God to recognize and defend against a religion, cult, or group that is devoted to my demise? Likewise, hope, confidence and faith are not exclusively the domain of religion. I can have hope that I will prosper & succeed in my endeavors, have confidence in my natural abilities, & have faith that my wife & children will always be there for me without being religious in any way.
I am not demeaning your faith in any way…I respect all religious people & feel they have every right to believe in whomever God or Gods they find comfort in. My issue with religions is when they tell their faithful that their religion is “the one” or even worse…”recruit!! Save the ignorant!!”
If there is a God I believe he is truly benevolent…so if I live my life correctly he will accept me when the time comes whether or not I was baptized or made a pilgrimage or whatever the current price of admission is…
The American dream is a paradox. We all romanticize how we could be that hard working…sweat on the brow…honest man that works extra hard & gets the American dream by owning his own business & making millions. That just doesn’t happen…only 16% of Americans own their own business (the majority of those are private practice firms of lawyers, doctors, & accountants). That means 84% of Americans work for someone else & a total of 30% of all Americans (1 in 3) work for a corporation (larger than 50 employees).
So the government is not taxing the shit out all those Americans…only those that have disposable income…the good of the many outweigh the good few. I would be interested in how many of the people on your email list are NOT getting a tax credit or some type of tax relief under the stimulus bill just passed?!?!
I agree 100% with you on the carriers…but do we need 11 in commission with 3 more being built? I realize that 1 or 2 are always being retrofitted in dry dock but come on…America doesn’t need to patrol every sea all the time to be safe. 9/11 was cause by 19 guys on commercial jets…U.S. Fleet carriers were all over the world that day…for what?
I keep repeating this…I DO NOT WANT TO GET RID OF OUR MILITARY…just to realistically assess the threats & tailor our military to be able to respond effectively to those threats:
---We are currently fighting insurgencies by going door-to door & destroying IEDs but the Army has spent over $35 billion & ten years on a state of the art battle management system (FCS) that links vehicles & commanders & planes & artillery & God himself to fight as an effective “power brigade”…?!?!?! By the way…it’s still not ready to be field tested!!
---We have the F-22 raptor that has been in progress since 1994 & as of 2006 had cost a total of $62 billion. We now have almost 100 of them at $361 million each but…and this amazes me…it still has not flown a single real world combat mission!!! Don’t worry though…we already have $10 billion invested in the F-35 Lightening II program that’s designed to replace the F-22!!!
You mentioned something about the government taxing the shit out of Americans…whatever could they be spending that money on?!?!?!
Over to you my friend…
Please tell me you were joking or egging me on with your Germany theory…I don’t see how you can credibly present that theory in today’s world…but here goes in case you’re serious…
Germany is one of the strongest economic members of the EU & a war would seriously threaten their economic & political well-being. They did have a history of starting 2 world wars (over 60 years ago btw!!)…but the stimulus for both were poor economic conditions…the direct opposite of their affairs today. Obviously, Germany and all nations in the world are feeling the effects of the global recession but I do not see how a political party in Germany gains a majority and sufficient momentum to start a regional conflict that could escalate to global?!?!
You’re right about the retaliation part…even more reason to not make decisions in anger & think of the long-term ramifications of our actions.
I missed how we got onto genocide & its effectiveness? Just because something is effective does not warrant a positive argument for it. That’s where your religious morals should kick in…
I disagree on your religion argument. Religious faith is a vehicle to find peace or meaning in your life. If that’s what you need, then more power to you. Why must I believe in God to recognize and defend against a religion, cult, or group that is devoted to my demise? Likewise, hope, confidence and faith are not exclusively the domain of religion. I can have hope that I will prosper & succeed in my endeavors, have confidence in my natural abilities, & have faith that my wife & children will always be there for me without being religious in any way.
I am not demeaning your faith in any way…I respect all religious people & feel they have every right to believe in whomever God or Gods they find comfort in. My issue with religions is when they tell their faithful that their religion is “the one” or even worse…”recruit!! Save the ignorant!!”
If there is a God I believe he is truly benevolent…so if I live my life correctly he will accept me when the time comes whether or not I was baptized or made a pilgrimage or whatever the current price of admission is…
The American dream is a paradox. We all romanticize how we could be that hard working…sweat on the brow…honest man that works extra hard & gets the American dream by owning his own business & making millions. That just doesn’t happen…only 16% of Americans own their own business (the majority of those are private practice firms of lawyers, doctors, & accountants). That means 84% of Americans work for someone else & a total of 30% of all Americans (1 in 3) work for a corporation (larger than 50 employees).
So the government is not taxing the shit out all those Americans…only those that have disposable income…the good of the many outweigh the good few. I would be interested in how many of the people on your email list are NOT getting a tax credit or some type of tax relief under the stimulus bill just passed?!?!
I agree 100% with you on the carriers…but do we need 11 in commission with 3 more being built? I realize that 1 or 2 are always being retrofitted in dry dock but come on…America doesn’t need to patrol every sea all the time to be safe. 9/11 was cause by 19 guys on commercial jets…U.S. Fleet carriers were all over the world that day…for what?
I keep repeating this…I DO NOT WANT TO GET RID OF OUR MILITARY…just to realistically assess the threats & tailor our military to be able to respond effectively to those threats:
---We are currently fighting insurgencies by going door-to door & destroying IEDs but the Army has spent over $35 billion & ten years on a state of the art battle management system (FCS) that links vehicles & commanders & planes & artillery & God himself to fight as an effective “power brigade”…?!?!?! By the way…it’s still not ready to be field tested!!
---We have the F-22 raptor that has been in progress since 1994 & as of 2006 had cost a total of $62 billion. We now have almost 100 of them at $361 million each but…and this amazes me…it still has not flown a single real world combat mission!!! Don’t worry though…we already have $10 billion invested in the F-35 Lightening II program that’s designed to replace the F-22!!!
You mentioned something about the government taxing the shit out of Americans…whatever could they be spending that money on?!?!?!
Over to you my friend…
Discussion IV
Here is Rick's response...I don't see an end in sight!!
World Domination: keep an eye on Germany. they lost two wars that almost had us all sprechin Deutch. They are eventually going to figure out that if they have Moscow on their side they can make their dreams come true. They are too intelligent and creative as a culture but are flawed with fanaticism. every time their economy takes a slump they talk them selves into taking actions against "the enemy!" you played far to many games of axis and allies to know they weren't close to victory. in short- if not them, someone.
Even we proved to not be above retaliation. someone smacked us in the eye and we wiped out the biggest bully on the block screaming to the world "who's next!". hopefully we can eventually find a balance between Vietnam and Iraq II.
The rest of the world uses genecide swiftly and precisely as in Darfur. it is planned, executed, and apologize for before the cumbersome world police can even get out their pens. Is it right? no, is if effective? crime is down 20% in Cambodia per latest news.
I have watched many things over the years and IMHO- too much of anything is never a good thing. We should have learned that from Rome.
As for religion, I believe this: As you know, over the years I have attended several different faiths observing pros and cons. The most important thing I learned was, similar except I didn't become "agnostic" as many of my friends have. a great mentor put it best, it doesn't matter what you believe, the spider woman and the 3 underworlds creation of the navajo, immaculate conseption of Jesus, or whatever as long as you have a belief in a higher power. this is a struggle that my family takes serious and has began these discussions. If we don't believe in something then we have no defense against a religion, cult, or group that is devoted to our demise. Hope, confidence and faith is what helped us through victory during WWII, suvival through the last depression, and rebellion from a King that asked far less taxes than we pay now.
As far as trickle down economics- you may be right. Greed always taints those that are most successful. they often get to the top by any means possible no matter how unethical they may be. Wish I knew the answer. My opinion for remaining a republican is that it is truly the "American Dream." The opportunity, no matter how slight, to work hard and make it big. Taxing 40% to those that worked their A__ of so just to give it to generational welfare cases is not my idea of an "American dream!"
Final note: the CVN is the future of the U.S.Navy and yes it is necessary. At a minimum it keeps the honest people of the world honest, and it is actually the fastest, most strategic, and by far the most effective weapon our nation has that will help us sail into another generation with the traditions, values, and beliefs that our nation has stood for since its birth. If you want to get a glimpse of what I am not able to describe in words you should check out the speaches/ commissioning of the George H. W. Bush. http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=commisioning+of+the+George+H.W.+Bush&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f# You may want to skip to the speaches if your not a military nut like me! I still enjoy the pomp and circumstance (about 8 minutes).
My friend Todd followed through on that rate you wanted to follow- Intelligence Speciallist. If I could do anything different it would have been to stick with that instead of taking that "NUKE test." You and I both would have benefitted from it. Until next time, Take care and God bless.
World Domination: keep an eye on Germany. they lost two wars that almost had us all sprechin Deutch. They are eventually going to figure out that if they have Moscow on their side they can make their dreams come true. They are too intelligent and creative as a culture but are flawed with fanaticism. every time their economy takes a slump they talk them selves into taking actions against "the enemy!" you played far to many games of axis and allies to know they weren't close to victory. in short- if not them, someone.
Even we proved to not be above retaliation. someone smacked us in the eye and we wiped out the biggest bully on the block screaming to the world "who's next!". hopefully we can eventually find a balance between Vietnam and Iraq II.
The rest of the world uses genecide swiftly and precisely as in Darfur. it is planned, executed, and apologize for before the cumbersome world police can even get out their pens. Is it right? no, is if effective? crime is down 20% in Cambodia per latest news.
I have watched many things over the years and IMHO- too much of anything is never a good thing. We should have learned that from Rome.
As for religion, I believe this: As you know, over the years I have attended several different faiths observing pros and cons. The most important thing I learned was, similar except I didn't become "agnostic" as many of my friends have. a great mentor put it best, it doesn't matter what you believe, the spider woman and the 3 underworlds creation of the navajo, immaculate conseption of Jesus, or whatever as long as you have a belief in a higher power. this is a struggle that my family takes serious and has began these discussions. If we don't believe in something then we have no defense against a religion, cult, or group that is devoted to our demise. Hope, confidence and faith is what helped us through victory during WWII, suvival through the last depression, and rebellion from a King that asked far less taxes than we pay now.
As far as trickle down economics- you may be right. Greed always taints those that are most successful. they often get to the top by any means possible no matter how unethical they may be. Wish I knew the answer. My opinion for remaining a republican is that it is truly the "American Dream." The opportunity, no matter how slight, to work hard and make it big. Taxing 40% to those that worked their A__ of so just to give it to generational welfare cases is not my idea of an "American dream!"
Final note: the CVN is the future of the U.S.Navy and yes it is necessary. At a minimum it keeps the honest people of the world honest, and it is actually the fastest, most strategic, and by far the most effective weapon our nation has that will help us sail into another generation with the traditions, values, and beliefs that our nation has stood for since its birth. If you want to get a glimpse of what I am not able to describe in words you should check out the speaches/ commissioning of the George H. W. Bush. http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=commisioning+of+the+George+H.W.+Bush&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f# You may want to skip to the speaches if your not a military nut like me! I still enjoy the pomp and circumstance (about 8 minutes).
My friend Todd followed through on that rate you wanted to follow- Intelligence Speciallist. If I could do anything different it would have been to stick with that instead of taking that "NUKE test." You and I both would have benefitted from it. Until next time, Take care and God bless.
Tuesday, March 3, 2009
My latest salvo...
Hi Rick!
I do not mind you sharing my thoughts...although I will let you continue to make that decision...I don't want to mass reply to anyone that doesn't want my wonderful thoughts!!
I think your religious choice is often geographic, cultural, & hereditary. Why is Mexico predominately Catholic? Because the Catholic church spent hundreds of years missioning Mexico and most children follow their parents footsteps in religion...myself excluded of course! I do not think religious extremists view themselves as punishing Christians for past sins...from what I have read Islamic religious extremists view Christianity as trying to convert Muslims as well...they view it as a struggle for the faithful.
I did not say that we don't need a strong powerful Navy or military in general...I said we need to reorganize our thinking and realize that the huge, lumbering navies & armies that we needed to win both world wars & the cold war are not needed in the scale we have them today...in other words create a faster, more responsive military that can handle quick-fire, short-term, situations...we don't need an armored division as much as a mobile & reactive light infantry regiment in many of today's situations, IMHO.
By the way...the carrier does not turn them into loyal Americans...it breeds hate & resentment that last long after the carrier sails away...nobody likes to be bullied (that's how they see us...not that we are bullying them)
Shock and awe works well on opposing armies...we haven't seen shock & awe work well since 2003 when we defeated Saddam. Shock & awe does not work well for insurgencies...see Iraq after the "mission was accomplished"
Ok...sorry...I have to get sarcastic here...who exactly would embark on a path of "world dominance" if we were not around?! Regional, yes (Iran would...but wait...we did it for them when we removed Iraq as a counter-balance in the region!!!)...world, no! There's no one with a 1/10th of our resources that could start "world domination"...
The ACU is very anti-government regulation and as such is very anti-democrat & anti-Obama. In a nutshell, I think you see a national majority moving away from teh ACU approach towards a more Democrat-minded approach where government is more involved in making sure you have the opportunity to prosper. The middle class has shrunk by over 20% since Reagan took office in 1980...the beginning of a Republican-dominated leadership run...the top 1% of wage earners make 31% of total income...up from 18 % in 1970.
I think letting business run unregulated only benefits those in charge...not every American. The "trickle-down" theory is a joke...just look at the data for the last 30 years.
Just my thoughts ;-)!!!
Best to you & your family...Jon
I do not mind you sharing my thoughts...although I will let you continue to make that decision...I don't want to mass reply to anyone that doesn't want my wonderful thoughts!!
I think your religious choice is often geographic, cultural, & hereditary. Why is Mexico predominately Catholic? Because the Catholic church spent hundreds of years missioning Mexico and most children follow their parents footsteps in religion...myself excluded of course! I do not think religious extremists view themselves as punishing Christians for past sins...from what I have read Islamic religious extremists view Christianity as trying to convert Muslims as well...they view it as a struggle for the faithful.
I did not say that we don't need a strong powerful Navy or military in general...I said we need to reorganize our thinking and realize that the huge, lumbering navies & armies that we needed to win both world wars & the cold war are not needed in the scale we have them today...in other words create a faster, more responsive military that can handle quick-fire, short-term, situations...we don't need an armored division as much as a mobile & reactive light infantry regiment in many of today's situations, IMHO.
By the way...the carrier does not turn them into loyal Americans...it breeds hate & resentment that last long after the carrier sails away...nobody likes to be bullied (that's how they see us...not that we are bullying them)
Shock and awe works well on opposing armies...we haven't seen shock & awe work well since 2003 when we defeated Saddam. Shock & awe does not work well for insurgencies...see Iraq after the "mission was accomplished"
Ok...sorry...I have to get sarcastic here...who exactly would embark on a path of "world dominance" if we were not around?! Regional, yes (Iran would...but wait...we did it for them when we removed Iraq as a counter-balance in the region!!!)...world, no! There's no one with a 1/10th of our resources that could start "world domination"...
The ACU is very anti-government regulation and as such is very anti-democrat & anti-Obama. In a nutshell, I think you see a national majority moving away from teh ACU approach towards a more Democrat-minded approach where government is more involved in making sure you have the opportunity to prosper. The middle class has shrunk by over 20% since Reagan took office in 1980...the beginning of a Republican-dominated leadership run...the top 1% of wage earners make 31% of total income...up from 18 % in 1970.
I think letting business run unregulated only benefits those in charge...not every American. The "trickle-down" theory is a joke...just look at the data for the last 30 years.
Just my thoughts ;-)!!!
Best to you & your family...Jon
Discussion part III
Here is my friend's response to my lengthy reply that I posted earlier...
Jon, Great to hear from you. If you don't mind I will be sharing this as I think it is a great start to the direction we need to go.
I must say that your religious choice is greatly attributed to education. The history of the churches, especially ours contrituted alot to the extremists of the world, however it is alot like slavery, indian reservations, etc.; "just because our ancestors made mistakes, it does not justify punishing us!" nor should we begin to responsible or guilty for what has happened before us.
I believe that America is our responsibility and it is under "our watch" so lets keep this going.
One more thing, you have to admit that although it may seem excessive to have the biggest, baddest, and coolest Navy in the world- it is pretty effective to the rest of the world when you roll up in a ride with 6000+ on board with enough fire power to turn them all into loyal Americans and the reserve not infringe on their lives. Shock and awe created by Reagan (deterance)is still keeping others at bay that would otherwise organize and renew their dreams of world dominance.
As for education, I believe that the military is still doing a wonderful job of training our nation and aiding men & women to education using the systematic approach to training that is proven affective. A large reason for us moving to Missouri is because the school we chose is still teaching in the same manner as the military does.
Well, enough rambling on my end. Take care and God bless. Send me your opinion on the C-PAC convention when you have time.
Jon, Great to hear from you. If you don't mind I will be sharing this as I think it is a great start to the direction we need to go.
I must say that your religious choice is greatly attributed to education. The history of the churches, especially ours contrituted alot to the extremists of the world, however it is alot like slavery, indian reservations, etc.; "just because our ancestors made mistakes, it does not justify punishing us!" nor should we begin to responsible or guilty for what has happened before us.
I believe that America is our responsibility and it is under "our watch" so lets keep this going.
One more thing, you have to admit that although it may seem excessive to have the biggest, baddest, and coolest Navy in the world- it is pretty effective to the rest of the world when you roll up in a ride with 6000+ on board with enough fire power to turn them all into loyal Americans and the reserve not infringe on their lives. Shock and awe created by Reagan (deterance)is still keeping others at bay that would otherwise organize and renew their dreams of world dominance.
As for education, I believe that the military is still doing a wonderful job of training our nation and aiding men & women to education using the systematic approach to training that is proven affective. A large reason for us moving to Missouri is because the school we chose is still teaching in the same manner as the military does.
Well, enough rambling on my end. Take care and God bless. Send me your opinion on the C-PAC convention when you have time.
Sunday, March 1, 2009
Road Trip
This is only half of them...
We call her the surgeon...
Like a wolf with a kill...
Sweet anticipation...
It was Steve's Birthday this week...he's a very aged 49...so we took him up to Phoenix on Saturday. We dropped off the ladies at the Arizona Mills mall & the guys shopped Golf World.Steve picked up a nice Cleveland Driver & daddy got some nice Callaway accessories for my bag.
Before we left town we stopped at Claim Jumpers & treated Steve to a nice Birthday meal. Tammy & Steph ordered a plate of ribs that looked like a side of Buffalo...have no fear though...they ate them all!!!
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